What is the Force MkII

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14 Mar 2019 16:15 #335582 by Manu
Replied by Manu on topic What is the Force MkII

Arisaig wrote: There is a way of saying that without making it a personal statement... :whistle:


Though I understand the sentiment behind wanting to maintain a friendly environment, sometimes the "in your face" approach can be very useful in getting a direct response, suppressing the tendency to dance around issues. Whether the approach itself is effective or not and at what cost, that is a different matter.

“Remember, rewards come in action, not in discussion.” Tony Robbins

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14 Mar 2019 16:17 #335583 by Arisaig
Replied by Arisaig on topic What is the Force MkII

Manu wrote:

Arisaig wrote: There is a way of saying that without making it a personal statement... :whistle:


Though I understand the sentiment behind wanting to maintain a friendly environment, sometimes the "in your face" approach can be very useful in getting a direct response, suppressing the tendency to dance around issues. Whether the approach itself is effective or not and at what cost, that is a different matter.


There is a way to be 'in your face' without resorting to basically calling the other person dangerously stupid. Discussion will happen with or without this approach, and the aforementioned approach borders on an attack.

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14 Mar 2019 16:22 #335584 by Kyrin Wyldstar

Arisaig wrote:

Manu wrote:

Arisaig wrote: There is a way of saying that without making it a personal statement... :whistle:


Though I understand the sentiment behind wanting to maintain a friendly environment, sometimes the "in your face" approach can be very useful in getting a direct response, suppressing the tendency to dance around issues. Whether the approach itself is effective or not and at what cost, that is a different matter.


There is a way to be 'in your face' without resorting to basically calling the other person dangerously stupid. Discussion will happen with or without this approach, and the aforementioned approach borders on an attack.



uhh what? You have an incredible bias towards me and it is getting in the way of your objectivity. To actually jump to this conclusion that i called him stupid is.. well.. fill in your own blanks here. I called him wrong in his approach to a subject, not stupid.

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14 Mar 2019 16:23 #335585 by Manu
Replied by Manu on topic What is the Force MkII

Arisaig wrote:

Manu wrote:

Arisaig wrote: There is a way of saying that without making it a personal statement... :whistle:


Though I understand the sentiment behind wanting to maintain a friendly environment, sometimes the "in your face" approach can be very useful in getting a direct response, suppressing the tendency to dance around issues. Whether the approach itself is effective or not and at what cost, that is a different matter.


There is a way to be 'in your face' without resorting to basically calling the other person dangerously stupid. Discussion will happen with or without this approach, and the aforementioned approach borders on an attack.


"Who is the bigger fool, the fool, or the fool who follows?" - Obi-wan Kenobi

I think it becomes quite evident when someone is making a fool of themselves, each word posted here makes an impression in everyone's mind. When others step in to engage, however, they just fuel it further, however. IF someone feels that there is indeed an attack, they can report it, of course. Otherwise, everyone will (and should) be entitled to form their own subjective opinion regarding the "elegance" or "poise" of each poster.

As someone who likes to step in proactively to help, it is commendable that you would want to protect others from possible attacks, but ultimately it just throws a wrench in the conversation machine, and turns the conversation into something entirely different (talking about talking), like we are right now.

“Remember, rewards come in action, not in discussion.” Tony Robbins
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14 Mar 2019 17:33 #335591 by Loudzoo
Replied by Loudzoo on topic What is the Force MkII
To take a step back for a moment – let’s look at the question: What is the Force?

We can attempt to answer the question in philosophical terms, scientific terms, experiential terms and even in narrative terms. Even though this is far from an exhaustive list it should be self-evident that attempting a scientific analysis of a philosophical answer, or a philosophical analysis of an experiential answer, is unlikely to be successful.

Stories (and mythology in general) are not meant to be taken literally – they have the power to reveal a different level of truth than, say, science can. Experientially, one of the strongest ways in which the Force can be felt is through the way in which people interact with each other. When an interaction is stimulated by fear (from which anger, hate, suffering and selfishness arise) we can say that is evidence of the dark side of The Force. When an interaction is based on love (from which compassion, charity, generosity and peace arise) we can say that is light side of The Force.

It’s not possible to adequately measure fear or love, but these are two of the most powerful forces in the world. They exist – and they have real world consequences. Furthermore they only exist because Life exists. Life only exists because our part of the multiverse happens to be conducive for it (the strengths of the fundamental forces, elemental diversity, matter in general etc). One doesn’t need to be a space wizard to see this.

TOTJO is a church. We worship (meaning the feeling / expression of adoration for) The Force and through meditation (and/or mindfulness) look to build a conscious connection with these ‘forces’. With practice it doesn’t take too long to develop a sense for when words, actions, and attitudes are coming from a ‘place’ of love, or fear. With more practice (and focus) one can develop the skill to actively choose which route to take at any given time, irrespective of the circumstances.

This is the real power of The Force and the associated skills are what we might develop as aspiring Jedi.
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14 Mar 2019 19:46 #335624 by Gisteron
Replied by Gisteron on topic What is the Force MkII

Loudzoo wrote: It’s not possible to adequately measure fear or love, ...

Sure it is.


... but these are two of the most powerful forces in the world.

No, they are not. They are strong enough effects that we can "adequately measure" them for sure, and they are arguably some of our strongest motivators, but they will do precious little about the rapidly approaching ground of anyone falling of a hundred yard high cliff and the electromagnetic force that will decelerate them in what we commonly call the impact.


They exist – and they have real world consequences.

Yes. That's why I don't understand how they can possibly be "not possible to adequately measure". They have consequences. We can tell the difference between events unfolding around subjects with them from those without. How is that not a measurement, or at any rate not an adequate one? What more would anyone expect?


Life only exists because our part of the multiverse happens to be conducive for it (the strengths of the fundamental forces, elemental diversity, matter in general etc).

I'll do a small nitpick at this one, if I may. We don't know just what it takes for life as we know it to emerge. Structures of arbitrary complexity naturally arise in almost any system that operates under any kind of constraints. For instance, in this Nature publication from just over two years ago , a simulation of identical particles spawned cell- and spore-like structures because of nothing but one simple motion law. They don't meet all seven criteria to qualify as life by our biological definition, but then we are talking about an extremely simple system, and yet already it meets several criteria. At this point I'd be surprised to find a possible universe configuration that can be spoken of as dynamic at all that wouldn't generate something a lot like what we call life, frankly.

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14 Mar 2019 21:04 #335642 by Loudzoo
Replied by Loudzoo on topic What is the Force MkII
Ok - what is the agreed scale of love (or fear) and how is it measured? Skin conductance, heart rate, self disclosure, might all be ways but they hardly tell the whole story!

These emotions can’t be adequately measured to the point where we could measure them cumulatively across time and across whole populations with any kind of accuracy or precision.

Can we ever know whether there is more love or fear in the world? I doubt it . . . I’m not even sure that question makes sense. These emotions don’t always manifest as actions in the world. In any case we can disagree on this measurability problem. It doesn’t change the fact that fear and love are massively powerful forces in the world.

Fundamental physical forces are powerful - nobody is disputing that. Gravity has the power to destroy life on this planet. So does fear. It’s a guess, but I’d bet more human lives were lost in the 20th Century as a result of fear manifesting as war and genocide than from people falling-off cliffs (or any other high places).

Biology creates new life - but so does love. My children wouldn’t exist without the love that my wife and I share.

I’m not sure what you’re nitpicking with that research. Life as we know it needs gravity of a certain strength (for stars to form) so that the elements necessary for life as we know it can be forged. I’m sure you’re familiar with the fine tuned universe theory - but I’m not going anything like that far! Again, I’d be willing to bet that emotional life is not possible if only hydrogen and helium (and a trace of lithium) existed as would be the case without stars (unless we re-awaken that thread from a few years ago when we discussed whether stars are alive or not ;) )
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14 Mar 2019 23:46 #335658 by Gisteron
Replied by Gisteron on topic What is the Force MkII

Loudzoo wrote: Fundamental physical forces are powerful - nobody is disputing that. Gravity has the power to destroy life on this planet. So does fear. It’s a guess, but I’d bet more human lives were lost in the 20th Century as a result of fear manifesting as war and genocide than from people falling-off cliffs (or any other high places).

Eh, maybe. Something tells me the majority of deaths in the 20th century occurred of disease and age-related bodily complications like cancer and heart failures. A few will have no doubt died from accidents, and then there was a whole bunch of people who were killed with poison or with bullets. Maybe a few elderly folk died from fear witnessing the horrors around them making their hearts fail.
See, I'm not saying that fear played no role in motivating people do the atrocities they commited. I wouldn't say it was a major role most of the time, but it is a powerful motivator regardless. The question is how far one is willing to trace the chain of events. One can say that the brain processes ceased due to a critical amount of cells being destroyed and blood vessels burst to damage further ones. One can say that all of that was a bullet that had penetrated the skull. One can say that the real cause of death was the gun that had fired the bullet. Or the finger that pulled the trigger. Or the person that elected to have their finger pull it. Or the commander that had ordered the killing and the feeling of duty because of the oaths the commander and the shooter took. It could be some leader further up or the goals they pursued, or the ideology they subscribed to or the fear that informed both of those things. It could be that supreme leader's childhood trauma, or a tendency for lunacy in their genes, or a spirit of disdain for the perceived sub-human in the immediate culture they grew up in. It could be a book they read or a book they wrote. It could be the history of their nation, or the history of their species. An instinct perhaps, or the finitude of resources. You see how far fetched this can get so quickly. It is an intuitive illustration of why causality makes no sense to begin with. Are all these things powerful forces competing to determine the outcome of any chain of events? Few people survive bullets in their heads. I think far more survive fear in their hearts, or even fear in everyone else's.


Life as we know it needs gravity of a certain strength (for stars to form) so that the elements necessary for life as we know it can be forged.

Says who? Which of the defining criteria of life necessitates a diversity of elements?


Again, I’d be willing to bet that emotional life is not possible if only hydrogen and helium (and a trace of lithium) existed as would be the case without stars...

Why, though? What about emotional life (assuming we have done enough to establish what that means) requires stars to be a thing?

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15 Mar 2019 06:44 - 15 Mar 2019 06:45 #335673 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic What is the Force MkII

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Adder wrote: The difference then between a Jedi and non-Jedi IMO is that Jedi just don't suppose to fill in the gaps of understanding, but instead presuppose and refine through that same process of data, hypothesis and test that you talk about....



This right here is your basic failing. How can you make a presupposition about something you know nothing about and then enact data processing that only leads you do that conclusion? This is wrong and i don't care if your scientifically minded or not, this is not the way to truly learn anything about reality, subjective or objective.


About what though, are you still thinking I'm talking about measuring objective reality? Because if you stay in your own argument unrelated to mine then you'll be able to defend it from no-one for as long as you like.... but it will remain unrelated to my post. I'm talking about the process of orientating thought within the experience of awareness. It's the same mechanism you mention but connected to the problems of working without having access to the bigger picture - one which we both cannot know because the Force is defined as such but also because our sensors are limited and filtered anyway.

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15 Mar 2019 08:54 #335684 by Loudzoo
Replied by Loudzoo on topic What is the Force MkII

Gisteron wrote:

Loudzoo wrote: Fundamental physical forces are powerful - nobody is disputing that. Gravity has the power to destroy life on this planet. So does fear. It’s a guess, but I’d bet more human lives were lost in the 20th Century as a result of fear manifesting as war and genocide than from people falling-off cliffs (or any other high places).

Eh, maybe. Something tells me the majority of deaths in the 20th century occurred of disease and age-related bodily complications like cancer and heart failures. A few will have no doubt died from accidents, and then there was a whole bunch of people who were killed with poison or with bullets. Maybe a few elderly folk died from fear witnessing the horrors around them making their hearts fail.
See, I'm not saying that fear played no role in motivating people do the atrocities they commited. I wouldn't say it was a major role most of the time, but it is a powerful motivator regardless. The question is how far one is willing to trace the chain of events. One can say that the brain processes ceased due to a critical amount of cells being destroyed and blood vessels burst to damage further ones. One can say that all of that was a bullet that had penetrated the skull. One can say that the real cause of death was the gun that had fired the bullet. Or the finger that pulled the trigger. Or the person that elected to have their finger pull it. Or the commander that had ordered the killing and the feeling of duty because of the oaths the commander and the shooter took. It could be some leader further up or the goals they pursued, or the ideology they subscribed to or the fear that informed both of those things. It could be that supreme leader's childhood trauma, or a tendency for lunacy in their genes, or a spirit of disdain for the perceived sub-human in the immediate culture they grew up in. It could be a book they read or a book they wrote. It could be the history of their nation, or the history of their species. An instinct perhaps, or the finitude of resources. You see how far fetched this can get so quickly. It is an intuitive illustration of why causality makes no sense to begin with. Are all these things powerful forces competing to determine the outcome of any chain of events? Few people survive bullets in their heads. I think far more survive fear in their hearts, or even fear in everyone else's.


Life as we know it needs gravity of a certain strength (for stars to form) so that the elements necessary for life as we know it can be forged.

Says who? Which of the defining criteria of life necessitates a diversity of elements?


Again, I’d be willing to bet that emotional life is not possible if only hydrogen and helium (and a trace of lithium) existed as would be the case without stars...

Why, though? What about emotional life (assuming we have done enough to establish what that means) requires stars to be a thing?


All the Life we know of is carbon based. Other options are available but we don't see evidence for them. To get carbon you need stars. I wouldn't rule anything out, but based on the evidence in front of us, one needs elements heavier than lithium to form complex Life capable of emotions such as love or fear. I don't think that is an unreasonable statement but if its too contentious we could postulate another argument - say that Life needs an energy source. Our energy comes from nuclear fusion in the sun and to a lesser extent, nuclear fission in the earth's core. These also rely on gravity (and other fundamental forces) to operate too.

In any case, we both seem to agree that fear and love are powerful motivations. These motivations don't exist separate from Life. Life as we know it, needs certain fundamental parameters to be in place (e.g. matter, and sufficient time to evolve). I suspect you may not like the concept but one can accurately say that "emotions are an epiphenomenon of matter and time".

I revere the Force because I respect these forces. Without them I wouldn't exist, and neither would those I love. Collectively, all these forces constitute what I refer to as The Force. Learning to live with them, even harness them, is my human project.

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